best translation plato republic

Don't make that mistake. This happens to be a topic I have strong feelings about. document.getElementById( "ak_js_3" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 1963-2022 NYREV, Inc. All rights reserved. On the other hand he is, unfortunately, at his worst where a dialogue has a philosophical point and proceeds by philosophical argumentation. If that was Platos plan, it flopped, and should be reported to have flopped. by chaz wyman Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:57 am, Post Hans Meyerhoffs translation of the German edition of 1960 reads excellently, and the volume is well printed, organized, annotated, and indexed. A fortiori, even Plato, at the dawn of philosophy and before the dawn of logic, should be expected to garble the methodology of philosophy. Friedlnder does not, like Bloom, shirk these hazards; he conscientiously wades in, but is straightaway pathetically out of his depth. Did it worry Aristotle? Socrates would probably say that, given enough time in one-on-one discussion with someone who has begun to grasp philosophic possibilities, there would be hope for anyone. Of dialectic the student will learn: the friendly conversation, as practiced by Socrates, is this combination of daring and moderation, and Dialectic, beginning from the commonly held opinions, will lead to an ultimate agreement. by Melchior Mon May 12, 2014 9:45 pm, Post Platos initial Method of Hypothesis is only the embryo of what is being applied in the Sophist. Here is how he justifies these extreme and even ridiculous measures (in Allen's translation): "Can we state any greater evil for a city than what rends it asunder and makes it many instead of one? Are there notmore or less perfect melodiesand souls? Oh dear! Glaucon could not have made this objection if he had not somehow been led by Socrates to glimpse, however inadequately, the superiority of philosophy to political life. They do not know that which they do correctly believe, so knowingcorrectly believing. Reviewing two new translations of Plato's Republic. It is this activity which can guide us to the discovery of the natural objects; and it implies (sic) that we begin from the phenomena as we see them. Bloom does not explain why Socrates fiercely prohibits young men from taking part in these cosy chats about, presumably, flowers and sea-shells. It isnt bare bones though, it holds a hefty page count and contains an essay, notations, and an introduction by Adam Kirsch that delve into what Plato was trying to achieve in this text. Yet when Socrates suggests in Book VII that the philosophers who have escaped from the Cave be compelled to return there and rule, Glaucon objects, "Then we'll do them an injustice? For Correspondence on this review, clickhere. You might try the Grube translation, recently revised by Reeve.

Perhaps the responses of dialogue participants doesn't really mean anything. But in the Introduction he translates this very phrase as "a kind of noble simplemindedness or stupidity." Sayres undertaking is to elucidate not, save incidentally, this or that particular dialogue, but Platos doctrines about philosophical method, as expounded in the Phaedo, Republic, and Phaedrus, and as applied in the Theaetetus and Sophist. A review of Edith Wharton, by Hermione Lee, Plato's mother's cousin was a tyrant." Allen suspects, and rightly so, that Socrates never quite gets around to answering Glaucon's challenge to prove that justice is something good in and of itself. Plato: Republic. A glorious boxed set featuring Robert Fagless award-winning translations of the three great epics of Western literature, ONE OF THE PREEMINENT translators of our time, Robert Fagless. Izaak Walton was inevitably better as an angler than as an angling-instructor. Re: Good Translation for Plato's Republic? Or, see all newsletter options here. What could Aristotle have been objecting to? by Richard Baron Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:36 pm, Post It is rather the education Socrates gives to Glaucon, Adeimantus, and the others who were fortunate enough to have been present that night in the Piraeus; and at yet a higher level, the education Plato gives his readers by showing us how Socrates educates. In this text, Griffin provides an accessible and informative introduction, authoritative Greek text, and commentary for students, discussing the problems. e+republic. Republic, translated by G M A Grube and revised by C D C Reeve (Hackett Classics), Very readable and successfully renders much of the incisive energy of the original; expertly revised by Reeve.. But it has not happened among us, nor do I know if it could have happened.

I could not get the link to work, but the ISBN in the link appears to be for a reprint of the Jowett translation. Sayre, who has obviously never been worried by it himself, treats Platos attempted solutions of the problem merely as, so to speak, interesting contributions to the professional journal that G.E. by Melchior Mon May 12, 2014 9:35 pm, Post So Bloom's good doe the translation though YMMV with the commentary? Five Books participates in the Amazon Associate program and earns money from qualifying purchases. by Aetixintro Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:04 pm, Post But Plato chose to present his philosophy in a dialogue, a literary form, and it stands to reason that a competent author would have intention behind repeated lines of dialogue, etc. Ferrari that graces Tom Griffith's conversational translation of Plato'sRepublic(Cambridge University Press, 2000).

Now the Latingenerosusis a precise match forgennaios, but, unfortunately, to render this as "generous" in English gives too much the impression that the Guardians are here being done a favor. One immediate benefit of this approach is to make more palpable to the reader the fact that Socrates' (to say nothing of Plato's) poetic imitation would have been banished, on stylistic grounds alone, from the city he proposes: only the unmixed imitator of the decent is welcome there, whereas in his retelling Socrates goes so far as to imitate even the angry Thrasymachus. Try secondary literature, of the kind that gives you reading advise? This site has an archive of more than one thousand seven hundred interviews, or eight thousand book recommendations. But for the most part the translation shouldprice apartprove as satisfactory for the student of philosophy as the translations of Shorey and Lindsay, or even of Cornford, Davies & Vaughn, and Jowett.

I love the Jowett translation. "[Lombardo] has brought his laconic wit and love of the ribald .

What follows is Socrates' claim that the citizens of the city must come to believe that their education happened before their birth; that they and their "brother" citizens were born from the earth; and that the division of the city into guardians, auxiliaries, and craftsmen/farmers corresponds to the different metals mixed into each individual's soul at birth. It might be news to him that Aristotle wrote an Art of Dialectic, i.e., his Topics, as a training-manual for a very different activity. But there did also exist the steelier Plato who is now at his especial ease in Heaven in the company of their btenoire, Aristotle. Excellent scientists sincerely but ludicrously prescribe canons of Induction, and excellent mathematicians pay sincere but ludicrous tributes to rules and regulations of Deduction. Blooms Englishings of Greek vocatives, like anyone elses, make us giggle or choke; a repeated rendering of a Greek preposition by depend on creates a philosophical muddle of which Plato was innocent; Blooms verbs to craft and to intellect are not even mistranslations, since they are not English; City of Sows is no improvement of City of Pigs, and ideas (in italics) is no improvement on Forms; and so on. Our target is now well marked for Bulls Eyes, Inners, and Outers. For Allen, the two works operate on the same plane or level of thought. I'd recommend his version, not just for the directness of his translation but for his interpretive essay at the back, marked so it can be easily read along with the text. Political life may thrive on blurring sharp distinctions, but philosophy much less so. On the other hand he does fail to bring Plato to life by imputing to him perplexities that we do or could share. One of my undergraduate professors, for example, published a paper about one specific formulation ("You speak the truth, Socrates") provides structure to the arguments in the early books. What was this worry? All this is present in the living reality called Socrates. And all this permeates (more than a reader of the Theaetetus may suspect) the enquiry into what is knowledge. by Paul Friedlnder, translated by Hans Meyerhoff. The second thing to note in Allen's translation is the way he renders Plato'sgennaios pseudosas "noble and generous fiction." The Theory of Forms is sketched with an enthusiastic indefiniteness which leaves it a mystery why Aristotle, or Plato himself in his Parmenides, troubled to criticize it. You Save 11%. You'll have enough of the writing available to see what you like. C.D.C Reeve's translation is the only translation in my opinion. We are allowed to forget that Plato is or should be emulating G.E. Or even finds himself wondering whether Plato did not in fact so concentrate. It has the outward appearance of a running prcis of the Republic, but it constantly slides, without signals, into speculative elucidations, into objections, and into expressions of Blooms own sentiments, including some understandably anti-utopian ones. The book by Paul Friedlnder is Volume III of a trilogy, and the second of a pair in which he expounds Platos individual dialogues. Hackett Classics has done a great job with their version. This undertaking is subject to a double hazard, one of which is clearly realized by Sayre. One side of an ironic statement is often meant to keep up polite appearances. The ironist certainly deprecates, but his self-deprecation is always a lie. "American Political Science Review, "Certainly the best modern verse translation. I heard Allan Bloom's book is way to focused on the political aspect and dismisses a lot of other points. It does turn out that the "excellent for its kind lie" is in fact an imaginative production modeled after what poets have made people believe in many other places. In the sentence immediately preceding and in the earlier passage about the lie in one's soul, Allen does translatepseudosas "falsehood." The first thing to note is that Allen remains true to the form in which Plato casts theRepublic, that is, as Socrates' narration to some nameless listener of a conversation he had had the previous night. Friedlnder is at his best in his descriptions of the dramatis personae and in his comparative analyses of the dramatic structures of the dialoguesthough he exhausts us with his blessed tensions that are to make everything viscously relevant to everything else. Oh dear! :). I understand now that I'll have to read more than one translation if I really want to get the closest to the original text. A few random checks show that he succeeds pretty well, though not perfectly. by Metadigital Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:17 pm, Post Fortunately, however, Sayre is so much interested in the actual argumentation of the Theaetetus that here he ceases, for long stretches, to match the ratiocinative moves that Plato makes against any prescriptions that he else-where advocates. /r/askphilosophy aims to provide serious, well-researched answers to philosophical questions. In his exposition of the Parmenides he tells us That in this exchange he [Socrates] fails and Parmenides ultimately prevails is no reason to misunderstand the relative merits of the respective arguments. So Socrates arguments, though weaker, are stronger.

Indeed their debate is a Socratic triumph since His [Socrates] own theory of eternal Forms had to be testedin this test to gain a new clarityagainst the radical rigidity of the Parmenidean view of being. Oh dear! Rouse? This allows the concepts of the author to shine through and is especially great for those who have read the rest of Platos dialogues. His, The first thing to note is that Allen remains true to the form in which Plato casts the, The second thing to note in Allen's translation is the way he renders Plato's, Allen's defensive translations of passages that might call into question the seriousness of Plato's immediate political intent in the, Socrates may not fully meet the extreme demands Glaucon places on justice, but this does not mean their conversation is to no effect. First time posting in this sub. It was Platos own fault. Indeed, according to Allen, "we may legitimately read theRepublicas an essay in constitutional law"; and he goes on to contrast it directly with James Madison'sFederalist#10. Yet the other side always remains, carrying with it the distinction between those in the know and those out of it. Best of The New York Review, plus books, events, and other items of interest.

They do so much more than leaving notes will be able to explain. Ferrari that graces Tom Griffith's conversational translation of Plato's, With talk of "noble lies" very much in the air today, it is worth looking at the passage from the, Unlike Bloom, Sachs adds summaries and outlines of the argument at the beginning of each of the, Nonetheless, liberation from the conventional opinions of one's own time and place is precisely what Sachs claims to be the purpose of the, Rousseau maintained that those who judge books by their titles mistake Plato's, The late Reginald Edgar Allen, Emeritus Professor in Classics and Philosophy at Northwestern University, has already published translations of a sizable chunk of Plato's corpus, as well as a number of scholarly studies in Platonic metaphysics. His dialogues are, for them, not just vivid conversation pieces or improving homilies; they are disputations in which things are or purport to be proved. It is left to the student to find out that in the text of the Republic there is only one sixteenline description of Glaucons character, plus two brief allusions to it. So, too, in the realm of translation, excellence has been well served by the current availability of several differentRepublics. Plato discusses the rulings of various states that he is familiar with as well as the best ways to govern. They would have squandered the dialogues close and sustained argumentation if they had been there. News about upcoming issues, contributors, special events, online features, and more. A single noble and generous fiction, to persuade especially the rulers themselves, but if not, the rest of the city? It is this crucial middle class which is the primary object (sic) of the Republic and the education prescribed in it. Power is in the hands of the gentlemen, who are not philosophers. (Allen is consistent in translatinggennaion euetheianat 348d as "a generous good nature." He's the first one that translated the Republic without the Christian reinterpretation other translations were filled with. [quote="Metadigital"]Alan Bloom is a good one. While the text as set up as a conversation between Plato and various colleagues, it does help to have a well-made translation. Enabling JavaScript in your browser will allow you to experience all the features of our site. When Thrasymachus complains of Socrates' irony, Sachs correctly wants to prevent the reader from confusing the term with sarcasm, and provides this gloss: "The Greek word refers only to the gracious self-deprecating way of speaking that was a specialty of Socrates." Oh dear! So, too, in the realm of translation, excellence has been well served by the current availability of several different. Okay so right now I have this translation. The first time you read the Republic, it might not matter so much. Those of us who find Platos Sophist centrally concerned with the notion of Negation will quarrel with Sayre, who almost ignores the crux-notion of Not, while operating vigorously with the derivative and more complex notion of Incompatibility. "Tell us, Goddess, daughter of Zeus, start in your own place: Book Nine is the turning point of the Iliad. Platos little anecdote needs no such inflation, and especially no such un-Platonic inflation. Rouse is one of my favourite because it renders so well the paragraph about the king and queen in the world of sight and the world of the mind. The passage from Sachs shows signs of his debt to Allan Bloom's 1968 translation, which he considers "by far the most accurate available." I replied. Opinions expressed in signed articles do not necessarily represent the views of the editors, the Claremont Institute, or its board of directors. Thanks again everyone, much appreciated! What Socrates offers in its place is a concrete solution for "controlling the mischiefs of faction," a problem which Allen (if not Plato) considers to be "the political problem." Current price is $20.49, Original price is $22.99. Nonetheless, of the three authors it is to Sayre that Plato signals his thanks from above. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Plato: The Dialogues, Second and Third Periods The Bollingen Series. The Republic translated by Desmond Lee with an introduction by Melissa Lane (Penguin Classics), This is lucid and accurate, with a very helpful introduction by Lane, 2. The topics which, at a not very highly theoretical level, are congenial to Bloom are social and political matters. It would take a great deal of persuasion to believe. For the discussion of philosophical books. Of these, here and there, he makes too much of a parade. This dialogue goes into much detail on politics and society. We publish at least two new interviews per week. In the Theaetetus Socrates crisply demolishes the suggested equation knowledge=correct belief by contrasting the eyewitness, who knows what happened, with the jurors, who believe what he tells them. The Theory of Forms is, of course, a very grand theory; but Sayre does not even hint that it was a lifeline for Plato in any sea of specifiable and sharable troubles. As I noticed during a lecture from philosophy of law, there are different translations which vary significantly in the approach to some terms and therefore may result in differnt understanding. We ask experts to recommend the five best books in their subject and explain their selection in an interview. I really enjoyed Plato translated by him. Set during the Trojan War, the. We, two thousand years later, are garbling it still. 2). My plan is to buy CDC Reeve's, follow it up with Allan Bloom's and see it from there on. Oh dear! Factionisa serious political problem. This little scene prefigures the three-class structure of the good regime developed in the Republic and outlines the whole political problem. Yet Friedlnder objects rhetorically Is not the soul of Socrates incomparably more soul than that of any of us? But the student will find Plato himself more perspicuous. Well, it is a fundamentally political book, but Bloom doesn't overlook the other aspects. He's the first one that translated the Republic without the Christian reinterpretation other translations were filled with. Javascript is not enabled in your browser. Alan Blooms The Republic of Plato is, in the first instance, a new translation of the Republic. Nonetheless, liberation from the conventional opinions of one's own time and place is precisely what Sachs claims to be the purpose of theRepublic, and his translation facilitates this end.

The superiority of this rendering inclines me to consider Allen's departure from his own translation as dating from a later and more mature stage of his development.) But had James Madison himself said this publicly, one would be compelled to question the edifice he built on that foundation. Thus "the mere fact that [Bloom's translation] has held the field since 1968 is reason enough to try to discover whether a worthy alternative to it can be provided.". And from the perspective of philosophy, dissent, to say nothing of faction, is hardly a vice. One of the great minds of the ancient times and still revered today, Plato uses these dialogues to share his thoughts on varied subjects. Sayre does Plato the justice of examining his work. Hi! Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, early modern phil., epistemology, skepticism,, They are not cosmic moonings. by duszek Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:45 am, Post This removes much of the fluff and modern wordage of many other translations and leaves an edition with Platos ideals apparent for all to see. Moore would one day edit. Unlike Bloom, Sachs adds summaries and outlines of the argument at the beginning of each of theRepublic's ten books. The Second Edition of this Norton Critical Edition continues to be based on Albert Cooks translation, widely acclaimed for its poetic phrasing and linguistic accuracy. C.D.C. Platos final methodology comes out as a plan for establishing definitions of a pre-Speusippan sort; but Sayre seems not even to ask himself what good such definitions would do, or why no philosophers, including Plato and Moore, have either provided us with any, or disappointed us by withholding them. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but these translations are just a pleasure to read; all the more so if you grew up reading Hamilton's mythology, her language is like an old friend. ", "Nothing new," I said, "but something Phoenician that has come into currency in many places before now, since the poets assert it and have made people believe; but it hasn't come into currency in our time and I don't know if it couldit would take a lot of persuading.". The translator, Allan Bloom of University of Chicago fame, has gone through translating in a word-by-word literal sense. Sayre belongs to our second tribe of expositors. Philosophically Friedlnder draws, not very deeply, on the Existentialism of Heidegger and Jaspers, usually without spoiling or improving his exegeses thereby. Sayres Platos Analytical Method. Sayres Plato, unlike the Platos of Bloom and Friedlnder, is a careful craftsman, whose toolshop deserves to be brought up-to-date. His few references to other thinkers are to Hobbes, Rousseau, Machiavelli, and Marx, as well as to a few of Aristotles and Kants ethical and political thoughts. by Melchior Mon May 12, 2014 9:49 pm, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. Dialogues and Natural History of Religion, Mengzi: With Selections from Traditional Commentaries. That way regardless of translation you should have a sense of what you're missing if you take everything as written. Oxford World's Classics. But Sayre, like Bloom and Friedlnder, does not dream that Plato was ever intellectually wrenched; or that he made himself a craftsman just because he direly needed the crafts. Friedlnders exposition of the philosophical core of Platos Sophist is not so bad. Thank you all for taking the time offering your opinions. They dessicate the Socratic debates into premises and conclusions. Friedlnder contentedly construes the, of course authentic, Seventh Letter as showing that Plato, then an old man,has come to expand the world of Forms so that it includes geometric shapes and coloured surfaces, moral concepts, all bodies both artificial and natural, the physical elements, living creatures and all the states of the soul. Plus Uncle Tom Cobbley and All? Can any one recommend a good translation of Plato's The Republic? If such intrusions tend to diminish the immediacy of the reader's engagement with Plato, they also serve their stated purpose of helping to keep track of a long, complicated dialogue. Socrates proposes to overcome it by abolishing privacy, the family, and private property. If youre looking for a simple approach to the topic for maybe reference work or would rather make your own notes without the added fluff of comments and notations already made by the publisher this one will do.

He ought to warn the student that it is not in Platos but in Blooms mind that Socrates constructs his utopia to point up the dangers of what we call utopianism; as such it is the greatest critique of political idealism ever written. In two dozen passages, one a page and a half long, Bloom peps up the Republic by adverting to Glaucons eroticism or passionate nature. Good luck with The Republic. HisRepublic, based on the 1903 Burnet text, maintains the high standard set by his other translations. For example, the technical problem What is the way to solve philosophical problems? to which Sayre devotes his book, did not merely interest, it desperately worried Plato. Here is his version of the preamble to the noble lie: How might we then devise one of those needful falsehoods we were just mentioning? Is the analogy then between city and man a sound one? by Melchior Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:59 pm, Post to his. Wittgenstein? On matters epistemological, logical, methodological, metaphysical, and semantic he is uncommunicative. One quick way is to look up the book on Amazon and then click the 'search inside' option. His manifold magics had to attract to him the large tribe of unphilosophical interpreters who have been fascinated by the Platonic dialogue as literature, drama, biography, sermon, prophecy or jeremiad, or else as vignette of Athenian social and cultural life, but have been incompetent to appraise their arguments. This immunity does save him, as not all of us are saved, from representing Plato as an early member of this or that school of modern thoughtunless the analytical method that he credits Plato with is that of G.E. He thinks that Plato is highmindedly disparaging the denizens of law courts. There did, of course, exist that golden Plato of theirs who is now at his ease in Heaven in the company of Dante, Cervantes, Bunyan, Swift, Boswell, Blake, Burke, and Aristophanes. Platos dialogues, like any other philosophical compositions, have points. The late Reginald Edgar Allen, Emeritus Professor in Classics and Philosophy at Northwestern University, has already published translations of a sizable chunk of Plato's corpus, as well as a number of scholarly studies in Platonic metaphysics.

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